Time to step on a few toes.
It is ashamed that Brees, or should I say Sean Payton, is mentioned with Marino in anything regarding throwing the football.
Brees is very accurate and works well within Payton's brilliant schemes, but lacks so many things physically with his arm.
Many people forget Marino's accuracy, it wasn't these 12yard passes into single coverage. It was a 30yard pass with a small window while hitting people in stride. When he needed touch passes, he had the touch. Most impressively he was running the same offense that the rest of the NFL was running, but he could do things other QBs could not. (His offense-two WR's in the patterns, where as Payton will have 4wrs- 15yds deeps spread across the field in 10 yards spaces.)
It is kind of like watching Alabama athletes vs Stanford athletes, you know they have the same record, but it is so obvious that one team or person is not capable of doing things that make you recognize the greatness.
Most that read this will think I am a Marino lover and Brees hater, but it is actually the opposite.
I never liked Marino teams nor pulled for him, Brees I respected and pulled for him most of his career, until he went Hollywood after Super Bowl.
Everyone knew he lack ball velocity and he struggled in an Charger offense that required timing routes with a little zip and never quit trying. (Thus lost his job to Flutie and Rivers while having the best RB in the last decade in his backfield.)
Bree's should give half his salary to Payton for making him appear to be one of the greats in the NFL.
Marino was the best passer I have ever seen.
J
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Really? Your first sentence and your last sentence are correct. However you have never pulled for Brees and always argued him being a product of the system. Partially correct. However you forget Mart Schottenheimer of the Bolts wanted Brees to stay , you forget Parcells told Payton to sign Brees if it was possible. Not bad recommendations. Payton- offensive genius- listen to him talk about Brees. Drew Brees deserves the accolades and the Saints as a whole deserve this. Only one playter has passed for over 5k yards twice.
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Marino- would have won anywhere. Could have won more with a runnig back and/or defense. He is still the best QB I have ever seen play and I still rank him above Brees (and countless others)
Compare the 2 seasons. Marino's is probably slightly better- More TDs, less sacks, and higher avg (9 per pass vs 8.2 for Brees) Brees was better at Completion% (71 vs 65) and YPG. BOTH ARE GREAT years.
Most of the talk I've heard this week correctly points out that you can't compare 1984 and 2011 in terms of rules and offenses. Marino's yeard was no doubt more impressive in context and there is no comparison in the talent of the 2 QB's in question.
But let's not forget the complexity of today's (Payton's) offenses and fail to give Brees credit for his decision-making and accuracy. Payton has devised the perfect scheme for Brees to excel, and Brees has executed it. A beautiful combination of conception and skill.
Unfortunate that in our convuluted culture many fans will see Brees' yards and his SB ring and assume he was on par with Marino.
S
With all the talk over how the rule changes have inflated passing yards, these data show that it amounts to a average difference of only 28 yards per game. The pundits make it sound like it’s 150 yards of difference per game. Further, if today’s game makes it so easy then why has Brees reached 5K twice and no one else to date, save perhaps Brady this year, have even approached the numbers achieved by Brees? If Brees passes for over 300 this week he will exceed average QBs of his year by more standard deviations than Marino in his
(exceeding his contemporaries more than Marino did in 1984). Thus, a strong case can be made that Brees has demonstrated a greater ability to gain passing yards than any other QB in NFL history.
The main subject of the post is that Marino is physically able to do things that Bree's and nearly ever player I have seen cannot do.
The Second area is the coaches that are taking advantage of the spread offenses and defensive penality changes.
Jonathan you are wrong, I have followed Brees since he left Austin. My problem with Bree's is the changes in perception and things that happened in New Orleans with people that know him.
Like Steve Young before him, Bree's was a decent QB with a different coach and system.
Then when he lucked into Sean Payton's Megamind he became a Hall of Famers. Marino would be a Hall of Famer in any system.
Thus I am saying Brees is going to Hall of Fame, so let go!
I love the use of "Standard Deviations to prove the differences.
J.
Brees record-breaking year represented a greater increase over the average QB for this era (SD=2.3) than Marino’s great accomplishment releative to the average QB in 1984 (SD=2.27). Of course, Brees essentially reached this milestone twice in three years. Congratulations to both historic QBs.
I hate to dive head long into the math on Standard Deviation.
Marino 1984 is at 2.4 to 2011 Brees at 1.9 with one game left.
Briefly. Comparison with top 10 QBs in league to rule out the ones that didn't throw.
Marino 50% more TD to league vs 23%
Marino 24% above in YPG-- to 15%
Marino 27% in yds to 17%
Brees Pass attmpt 12% to 12.7 to Marino.
Not really close vs top of NFL.
J.
Huh? This last analysis doesn't include the final game, and these stats are inconsistent with the extensive data presented on the following site:
http://ahan-analytics.drduru.com/thoughtblog/2011/12/28/dan-marino-versus-drew-brees/comment-page-1/#comment-89
Brees was superior to Marino in both absolute (shattered the record) and relative terms in moving that ball in their respective record years. This record is not about TDs, attempts, throwing motion, height, or the myriad other factors that get woven into the discussion.
I love the website. But, it says exactly the same thing that I did.
The wording from the webpage was even more specific than I was in rating Marino's season over Brees.
One paragraph sums it up from the web story.
"Not only does this chart show that Dan Marino was much further above the average quarterback in the same record-breaking season than any other record-holder, but it also shows that Dan Fouts truly ushered in the new era of the profligate passer. When he broke is own record in 1980 with a near 20% increase in passing yards, the average QB’s passing yards only increased by around 3%! (Note that this average performance has definitely spiked higher these days.):"
J
That table did not include stats from the last game of the season for Brees, right? Add in those yards and all of your stats have to be altered. If the rules changes and epoch matter so much, why do the average QBs this year earn only 16 more yards per game (3101-2839 / 16) than those in 1984? Brees passed for 392 yards more than Marino. Why not just concede that Brees had a better year than Marino in terms of moving the ball down the field in his record year, even relative to contemporaries? Whether Brees was a better QB than Marino (my position) or not (the position of others) is another matter open to debate.
Incidentally, playing this statistical analysis to diminish the performance of Brees relative to Marino prompts reconsideration of the Namath record of 1967. Now this is a very large difference in passing effectiveness from 1967 to 1984, and if you factor in the 14 game season and his record relative to the average QB of his era, than a case could be made that he actually outshined both Brees and Marino while transforming the entire league via the new and exciting AFL style of play.
The Post is about remembering Marino, pure and simple. Brees is just the person that took the brunt for being a QB in a great system. If it was Rodgers, I would have done the same. But he has a much better arm than Brees.
I didn't even like Marino and hated the Dolphins, but 1984 was just beyond what we had seen.
If I was grading greatest seasons, Marino's would have been included with Namath's. But, I honestly would have taken Brady, Manning and Unitas seasons before I looked at Brees.
Brees had another great year and I have posted many times that he will be voted a Hall of Famer.
Was it better than Rodgers this year of Marino in 1984.
In my opinion, it was not.
I never mentioned the SD until it was brought up. I actually ran it on only the top 10 QB's in the league during the years they played and Marino's SD is even Greater in Yards, TDs, and most categories.
For the record, I am the person that predicted Brees would win the Super Bowl 2 years ago and this year, in Sept 2009. I obviously think Brees is a top 3 QB at this time.
j.
You're right that a larger sample would have increased the SD for all of the analyses, but the Brees-Marino-Namath comparisons may or may not have been altered. I'm not sure what you mean by "and Marino's SD is even Greater in Yards, TDs, and most categories." It wouldn't make any sense or relevance to calculate "Marino's SD". It's the SD (in yards gained) of all of the QBs that would matter in this discussion, so all of the stats that I have seen still leads to no other conclusion but that, relative to their contemporaries, Brees, perhaps Namath, and then Marino were most impressive in terms of yards gained in a single season. Guess we'll just have to disagree, and again, I really appreciate your respect for Brees himself. I sure hope that he scales even greater heights in the future because I regrettably doubt that the future HOF voters will be so kind.
If interested in yet another unrated Saints achievement, consider Dempsey's kick over 40 years ago. The record at that time was 56 yards, and the conventional wisdom was that 60 yards was the absolute limit. Keep in mind that he made the record with the disadvantages of straight-on kicking, using the flat boot (scientifically shown to provide no extra distance but a lot of lost accuracy), on a grass field at sea level (Denver gives about 8 extra yards per kick). The SD effect size on the Dempsey kick would have been off the charts. I don't think young fans today understand what an achievement that was in 1970.
That Kick is one of my favorite football memories. I actually watched the Dempsey kick and was jumping around ecstatically. We immediately went to the football field down the street and started kicking field goals off a tee.
I had never realized the jump in yards over the previous record. Not to mention the weather at the time of the kick, no one will ever compare New Orleans weather and humidity to the Mile High elevation.
I believe it George Allen for the Redskins, immediately started questioning publicly if the shoe was legal that the handicapped Dempsey was using. As a follow up to that, Tex Schramm started questioning if the Skins kicker was putting helium in their balls to get the elevation and hang time on kickoffs.
Dempsey’s’ kick may rank as the top feat in NFL history in my opinion. If we add that 10% extra distance for the Denver, that kick may have gone over 70yards
J.
I really liked all of your post, I wish you would add an initial on your post.
They were exactly what we need to look at.
Sometimes I don't let certain post be published and yours are inightful and would like them to flow right into the website.
J.
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